Chris Carey (posted May 11, 2012 at 7:57am) puts up …

Comment on Grog stats may be useless as they do not include online and mail orders by Bob Durnan.

Chris Carey (posted May 11, 2012 at 7:57am) puts up several straw men in his cynical discussion of a “philosophical” approach to setting policy on preventing the social, legal, economic and health harms arising from excessive use of alcohol.
Chris, nobody is saying that we should adopt a floor price purely and simply because it “works”.
If you think this is the case then I suggest that you may not have been paying serious attention to the details of the arguments.
Similarly, I am not aware of anybody arguing “that if people do not accept that alcohol restrictions are justified that this means that they do not care about the issue of problem drinking or the plight of the individual problem drinker”.
Most importantly, I do not know of anybody seriously proposing that a floor price should replace the need to “deal with the [other] underlying issues.”
But what really gives away the fact that Chris is either unable or unprepared to listen is his reference to “the idea of turning off the tap” (i.e. prohibition). Nobody in the local alcohol reform movement has proposed “the idea of turning off the tap” Chris.
For several years, alcohol regulation reformers in Alice have espoused the slogan “turn down the grog tap”. It is printed on bumper stickers, fridge magnets and posters. Nowhere does it state “turn off the grog tap”.
If you can see no difference between putting a cage around the Balgo monastery and introducing a floor price Chris, then I think you may need a couple of lessons in basic logic.
However, the caged monastery approach, and those approaches advocated by Lockemup Melky, Nobble’em Neindorf, Punishem Brown and Prisoncamps Mills (not to forget Gavin “Too Cruel to Say It” Carpenter), are not so conceptually different to the Balgo solution.
It is somewhat ironic that you end your contribution with a lecture about people “not being willing to listen and learn”, when this appears to be a hallmark of your own approach.
From the evidence above, it is clear that you would much rather make assumptions, form broad generalisations and criticise people unfairly, rather than take the trouble to listen carefully and try to understand your opponents.

Bob Durnan Also Commented

Grog stats may be useless as they do not include online and mail orders
Readers interested in the debate about the appropriate regulation of alcohol may be interested in these comments by the NSW Police Commissioner Andrew Scipione. Essentially he’s saying that cheap take-away alcohol’s easy availability is the weak link in his state’s considerable efforts to reduce the rates of alcohol-related crime, and domestic violence in particular.
See http://www.smh.com.au/nsw/police-chief-pushes-for-bottle-shop-clampdown-20120513-1yl23.html#ixzz1uo4UGw00 .
Scipione is coming from the same kind of perspective that PAAC and other local reform campaigners share: that prevention is far better than cure or punishment, and that the best compromise (in terms of minimising impacts on liberties, convenience and cost) in pursuit of prevention is to implement ways that DV and other harms can be reduced via cutting back on both supply and availability, but only so far as does not lead to too many other harms developing in the process. That is, Scipione, like us, wants to see an effective but balanced approach, suitable to the context of the problems.


Grog stats may be useless as they do not include online and mail orders
It is astonishing how an unsubstantiated rumour about massive amounts of alcoholic beverages allegedly moving surreptitiously through the parcel delivery systems of the town without the knowledge of the Licensing Commission and Justice Dept can be given so much credence. Now it has led to a series of convenient statements from the usual, mostly anonymous anti-regulation sources.
It is entirely predictable how seriously this is being taken by those with a political and ideological interest in such speculation.
Our household was for many years in a wine club, and I know of others. This is nothing new. I have no doubt that the trade could have increased over time, but not to the extent that Rex and Brendan allege, at least not without the authorities becoming aware of such.
What is more surprising is how little trust gets placed on the professional opinions and assessments of those public servants whose jobs depend on them maintaining their credibility on this type of issue.
As Erwin points out, the mail-order supplies sold by the biggest-advertising major retailers are included in the NT wholesale figures. These deliveries almost certainly account for the bulk of any alcohol sent via the post office and road couriers, and so do not undermine the credibility of other available statistics.
It appears that there is no evidence to contradict the opinions of the DoJ officials, that internet orders from interstate are a negligible part of the town’s alcohol problem.
The pallets that Brendan Heenan has heard about most likely consist mainly of the hugely increased sales of a very wide range of products now being bought over the net.
Why am I not surprised?
Perhaps PAAC’s efforts to motivate Alice Springs’ population to start thinking seriously about a logical, evidence-based approach to problem solving are beginning to hit home, and some vested interests and their friends are lashing about looking for scapegoats and diversions.


Recent Comments by Bob Durnan

The millions and the misery
Jones (Posted June 10, 2018 at 12:46 pm), you display an unreasonably negative and incorrigibly antagonistic attitude towards the Central Australian Aboriginal Congress and its considerable achievements in the health field.
You may have heard the old adage that a little knowledge is a dangerous thing? This certainly applies to you. You continually use your ignorance as a cloak for confidently, and very unfairly, maligning Congress.
For your information:
1. The primary causes of most renal disease are very long term, and are mainly associated with poverty. The impacts of the chronic stresses from living in poverty begin in utero, then early childhood, with kidney stones and infections much more common. The stress burdens and infections contribute to weaknesses in organs such as the kidneys. These experiences are all imprinted on a person in ways that may lead to renal disease in later life, irrespective of what health service a person attends. As already discussed, a great deal of the global obesity / diabetes epidemic is socially determined, and health services can only do so much on their own.
2. The rate of end stage renal failure requiring dialysis amongst Congress’s own long term resident clients is vastly less than the rate in the rest of remote central Australian Aboriginal communities. The rate in remote areas is generally more than eight times greater than the town. If you are going to use data, you should use it correctly.
3. There is no basis for your statement that “the [overall] incidence of this terminal disease [i.e. renal failure] is a good measure of the success or failure of diabetes programs for which Congress has responsibility”. The situation is much more complex, as explained above, and health services can only do so much.
4. In light of the above facts, there is no validity in your statement that “the incidence of end stage [renal] disease is out of control despite the tens of millions of funding provided to Congress.” Rather, it would appear that Congress’s funded programmes have contributed to the rate of end stage renal disease being much lower in the long term Alice Springs Aboriginal population than it would have been without those programmes.
Jonesy, it is now incumbent upon you to relinquish your pathological denial of Congress’s achievements, and “agree that Congress has long been a leader and good practitioner in prevention and early intervention strategies and practices.”


The millions and the misery
Yes Evelyne Roullet, I have heard of HTLV-1. It would be hard to not have, given the recent publicity.
But no, I don’t know how much Congress, or anybody else, contributes for research and cure of it.


The millions and the misery
You are being perverse, Jones (Posted June 8, 2018 at 7:18 pm), and you are not nearly as well informed as you seem to think that you are.
Being a provocateur perhaps, just for the sake of it?
I pointed out that Congress (Central Australian Aboriginal Congress, or CAAC) has helped to greatly increase the average length of Aboriginal life expectancy in our region.
CAAC has played a leading role in achieving this increase in average life expectancy, not just by medical interventions, but also by fostering social and behavioural changes, such as by helping to ensure that when children are quite sick that they are brought to Congress by their parents, and are referred to hospital when needed.
You are possibly unaware that before Congress started providing health services in 1973, many sick Aboriginal babies were not being treated in the hospital, for a range of reasons.
Most important was the fact that the hospital was only desegregated in 1969.
Added to that was the fact that the hospital had also formerly played a key role in informing the Native Welfare Branch about the presence of mixed race children in the hospital, or where they were living, and this often lead to their removal.
Thus there were some powerful legacy issues.
In this context, many parents had been very reluctant to take their children to the hospital.
Although you agreed with me about CAAC helping to greatly extend the average rate of Aboriginal life expectancy in our region, you then went on to condemn CAAC for not preventing diabetes, and for allegedly not taking effective steps to intervene in its progress.
These are clearly unreasonable accusations on your part, based on a simplistic understanding of the complexity of the relevant issues, and the history of the situation with diabetes.
Much of what you say about this matter is factually untrue.
It is clear that you have not looked at the CAAC annual reports carefully, otherwise you would know the proportion of Congress diabetic patients who have their blood sugar tested regularly each year is quite high. Further data shows that a high proportion of patients have excellent sugar control.
These figures and many other key performance indicators (KPIs) are published every year in Congress’s annual reports.
This is in stark contrast to most other general practices, which rarely publish such data in their annual reports.
Please have another, more careful look at the CAAC annual reports, which are available on line.
You will find a wealth of information which you and other interested members of the community can use to judge the success of Congress.
As for prevention of diabetes, it has a very long development period.
Most of the CAAC diabetes prevention programmes are also long term by their very nature, and begin with trying to ensure healthy pregnancies, healthy births, and good early childhood health and emotional wellbeing programmes.
CAAC is now providing these services to many of its clients.
However, some of these programmes have only been funded in the last 10 years, some of them only starting quite recently. Several of them are not yet funded in many remote Aboriginal communities.
As you may be aware, the diabetes epidemic is a massive global health crisis that has been caused by what is known as our “obesogenic” social environment, which is rich in high fat, high sugar, high salt, high carb ultra-processed foods, and increasingly sedentary, inactive lifestyles.
Congress alone cannot be expected to change this.
There is much that is still needed to be done in public health terms.
For example, Congress has been advocating for a sugar glucose tax of 20% for more than a decade.
Congress has long advocated that funds raised by such a tax should be hypothecated, or reserved, to be spent solely on a subsidy to ensure fresh fruit and vegies are affordable in all remote communities.
This key position and advocacy has been Congress policy well before the AMA and other peak medical groups around the world adopted it.
Congress removed soft drink machines back in the late nineties, something that most of Australia’s public hospitals and major medical centres are only starting to do now, 20 years later.
Another key endeavour, where CAAC has had some success in recent years, is in the area of reform of the NT Government’s regulation of alcohol consumption and sales, in order to reduce the average level of consumption amongst problem drinkers and those at risk of becoming problem drinkers.
This is widely acknowledged to be a necessary pre-requisite before many further advances in the preventative programmes area can be expected to take place.
You can’t have it both ways, Jones.
You should admit that Congress has long been a leader and good practitioner in prevention and early intervention strategies and practices.


Fewer pokies, help for gambling addicts
Bev Emmott, I don’t understand some of your comments, but I get the drift. “Where are the drunks in Sadadeen,” indeed?
Maybe you could try some of these activities?
Swimming, athletics, archery, shooting, motorbike riding, keeping bees, knitting, embroidery, playing pool, darts, training dogs, raising birds, keeping cats,
following non-Aboriginal art at Araluen, the Art Shed and elsewhere, doing painting, visiting the prisoners, assisting the disabled, helping young single mums, volunteer work, making sculpture, writing, cooking, helping Maureen York, soothing Matthew Langdan’s feelings, dining out, dining in with friends, cycling, walking, running, netball … etc etc etc.
There are not enough hours in the day, or days in the week, or weeks in the year!


The millions and the misery
Re Michael Dean’s mean minded aspersion against the Central Australian Aboriginal Congress (CAAC) staff (Posted June 5, 2018 at 11:37 am: “Amazing … $32m budget and $28m in salaries. They know who to look after, don’t they.”)
Michael, you need to stop and think a bit before you make statements like that.
Consider that the 333 full-time equivalent (FTE) positions on the Congress payroll include about 20 FTE doctor positions, covering seven town clinics (at Gap Rd, Sadadeen Shops, the Diarama Village shopping centre, the Alukura Women’s Clinic on Percy Court, the male health Ingkintja, the youth mental health service at headspace, the after-hours service for the whole community at the hospital), plus a clinic at Amoonguna and four remote clinics (at Mutitjulu, Utju, Ntaria and Ltyentye Apurte).
Most of the rest of the staff are nurses and other health and allied health practitioners, working over these same twelve sites, as well as doing outreach into other services and agencies.
If you deduct the salary packages and on-costs of the doctors from the total, you will see that the average annual wage packages, including on-costs, of the 313 FTE non-doctor staff is around $75,000 per annum.
This is not excessive, considering their skills, the difficult jobs that many of them perform, and the remote locations in which many of them work.
In the last 20 years this workforce has contributed greatly to improving the life expectancy of local Aboriginal people and reducing the gap with other Centralian residents.
Considering the continuing shorter average life expectancies of Aboriginal people, and the gap between their health and the average health levels of other Australians, do you really think that this expenditure is not warranted, Mr. Dean?


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