Comments on: Briscoe Inquest: reduce supply of excess alcohol from take away outlets, says Coroner

By: Bob Durnan

Bob Durnan — Fri, 28 Sep 2012 02:22:23 +0000

In reply to Ray (@Posted September 27, 2012 at 10:15 pm):
Ray stated that “The same drunks were still getting locked up because they could still get alcohol, either by having their kin buy it, smashing into shops, houses or other means.”
This assertion is fundamentally flawed, and also neglectful of other relevant considerations.
Firstly, the fallacy is demonstrated by the fact that, by the end of the BDR era, police at the Alice Springs Watch-house were hosting less than half the number of protective custody clients compared to the winter period in 2011. (The data reflecting this is only partly included in the NT crime statistics released a couple of days ago, which only contained information up to the end of June).
Secondly, when the ban was lifted, banned drinkers celebrated and public drinking resumed on a large scale in public areas. Police were suddenly run off their feet trying to respond to a proliferation of incidents and were unable to continue preventing much of the illegal transport of grog for consumption in banned houses and prescribed areas.
Thirdly, and most tellingly, publicans were complaining that the enforcement of the BDR at the entrance to their public bars was undermining their business model, and causing their profits to collapse.
The allegation that the same drinkers “were still getting locked up because they could get alcohol, either by having their kin buy it, smashing into shops, houses or other means” at anything like previous rates is preposterous, and amounts to pure spin by the industry and its allies.
The amount of alcohol obtained in break-ins was nowhere near comparable to the amounts of reduced sales at bars and bottle shops.
The ability of drinkers to enlist relatives to purchase on their behalf had been greatly reduced as the effects of the BDR had gradually reached “critical mass”. When 800 locals were no longer easily able to obtain grog over the counter, the drinking culture had come under such severe constraints, as manifested by the points listed above, that it began to recede.
More importantly, a very significant by-product of this dynamic is ignored by Ray and his fellow cynics: the BDR was also beginning to make in-roads into the rate of reproduction of the heavy drinking culture. As the drinking circles were reduced in frequency, size and impact, so the opportunities for young people and other new drinkers to get enveloped by this activity and quickly addicted became less. This receding was enabling other complementary measures to begin to work.
The sudden abolition of the BDR has sent all these gains down the plug hole. This has been a great set-back to the development of a healthy society in Central Australia.
All those concerned to see a healthy local society, economy and culture should implore Mills, Elferink and the four Central Australian-based Ministers to re-introduce the BDR for a two or three year period, and give it a fair trial and evaluation.

By: Ray

Ray — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 12:45:02 +0000

Hello again Russell. A few points. Contributions are permitted without surnames, I choose not to supply mine, which is my right, please do not denigrate me by saying I do not have courage.
I am offering my views in an effort to contribute to the discussion, and for reasons that matter to me, I do not wish to use my last name. It does not make my opinion any less valid. I do not agree that personal attacks or names such as loopy left, radical right help anybody.
I do not use the terms racist and paternalistic in the context that you suggest. Your comments to me suggest that any view that opposes yours must be wrong, and you lump many contributors together. Some rant and rave, but that is passion (sometimes unbridled).
I well know about the problems in Byron Bay, in Kings Cross, and even in Mitchell Street, however I was talking about our unique problems. With all the empty bottles you collected, it would have been interesting to see how many of those people were taken into protective custody, or even hospital. We need to deal with the biggest problem that is causing the most damage in our town.
Young white males getting blotto and coupling that with extreme violence is a major problem all over the country, however it is not our number one problem. Let’s target and find specific solutions to OUR problems, that is Aboriginal men such as Mr Briscoe needing to get so drunk that they need to be taken into protective custody. By the level of intoxication, he could have easily ended up as a death outside of custody.
How has this been happening for so long? I played golf this morning, mowed the yard and did some gardening, after that I bought a carton of beer and had a few while making dinner for my family. Many many people do this, as it is the responsible consumption of grog.
If we closed all bottle shops except one, those people would still get grog, and the owner of that one shop would be very very rich. This was evident during the BDR. The same drunks were still getting locked up because they could still get alcohol, either by having their kin buy it, smashing into shops, houses or other means.
My point Russell, is that for many years people have been very afraid [to say] it is a problem that primarily affects Aboriginal people.
This is evident in the facts and figures you quote. Until we are able to identify the problem, without being accused of being racist, we are fighting with our hands tied behind our backs.
I’m not interested in getting in an argument with you Russell, I enjoy reading all opinions and occasionally like to send mine. Cheers, Ray.

By: Russell Guy

Russell Guy — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 02:05:05 +0000

Ray, despite the fact that you continue to lack the courage of your convictions by not posting your surname, your comments need some kind of response.
I’m glad to see that you agree that alcohol-abuse in Alice is a “massive” problem in what you consider to be focussed on a “disproportionate” Aboriginal sector, but like the current Queensland government attempt to review / dismantle Alcohol Management Plans (AMP) put in place in Aboriginal communities by the Beattie’s ALP govt in 2002, you and Steve Brown et al, continue to focus on alcohol-abuse as an Indigenous problem, using terms like “racist” and “paternalist” when the point has been made ad nauseum that it’s an Australia-wide problem and increasing.
The alcohol industry has no intention of self-regulating or packing up and going away.
In your posts, you could start asking why Australia has such a massive, drinking culture and look a little closer at the alcohol industry, its advertising, promotion, mates in government and business.
In the NSW community of Byron Bay last Summer, I worked for two weeks emptying wheelie bins from holiday lettings and was staggered to find that 95% were brim full, each morning, with alcohol bottles, ranging through beer, spirits and champagne (a correct statistic).
For the past weeks, local papers have been running letters to the editor debating the alcohol problem in Byron as the liquor chain ‘Dan Murphy’ wants to open.
Can I suggest you go and see the Salvation Army officers in Alice, talk to them about homelessness and families suffering from various alcohol related issues and obtain a copy of the Alcohol Awareness Week data just released.
Do some research instead of saying things like “I think you’ll find…” etc. Get on the web and access the Foundation for Alcohol Research and Education site. It will open a proverbial Pandora’s Box of ongoing research into the disproportionate effects of liberal alcohol supply in the Australian community.
Regards, Russell (bona-fide, card carrying member of the lunatic fringe and loopy left association).

By: Alex Nelson

Alex Nelson — Thu, 27 Sep 2012 01:46:43 +0000

Ray’s comment, Posted September 26, 2012 at 9:29 pm, makes an interesting observation that is echoed from an article published in the Centralian Advocate 30 years ago, which is quoted extensively below:
“Aboriginal deaths caused by alcohol in Alice Springs have reached numbers that frighten police, doctors, coroners and Government Ministers.
“Alcohol as the primary cause of death, in lay man’s terms literally drowning in the stuff, caused just one death last year. However, when one considers secondary causes, more than 100 Aborigines have died as a result of a drunken stupor in the past 18 months.
“The alcohol was consumed mostly in the Todd and Charles River beds.
“Statistics that show blood alcohol contents of up to 0.34 per cent confirm Alice Springs as the worst town in Australia for Aboriginal drink deaths.
“Autopsy records and statistics show the cause of these deaths as loss of blood, smashed skulls and other injuries.
“Sweet sherry, muscat and wine fortified with raw spirits are the real killers.
“All types of grog are consumed in huge amounts and recent restrictions on the amount of one type allowed to be sold seems to make no difference to the death count.
“Some of the men and women who have died as a result of drink have been as young as 25 and to be dead drunk at 35 is not uncommon.
“Port Hedland in Western Australia has about six such deaths a year.
“Alice Springs has the reputation of being the worst town in Australia for the numbers of Aborigines who end up on a slab in the morgue after drinking.
“The Port Hedland hospital serves a town of 17,000 with an Aboriginal population of about 10 per cent in the area [however] the problem was nowhere the size in Port Hedland as it was in Alice Springs.
“The story was much the same in other towns in Australia with substantial numbers of Aboriginal residents.
“Although most did not approach the 25 per cent of Aborigines living in the Centre the proportion of drink deaths was way below that of Alice Springs.
“Bourke in NSW does have a 25 per cent Aboriginal population but only had two drink deaths in the last six months” (“Many die from the grip of the grape”, Centralian Advocate, August 18, 1982).
I’ll leave the final word to Central Australia’s most revered Aboriginal personality, Albert Namatjira, whose observations on this topic reported 60 years ago has proven dreadfully prophetic:
“Albert Namatjira wants full citizenship rights. He believes that some of his people are entitled to it but is frightened at the thought of what would happen if some in the town areas were given their “freedom”.
“They would drink liquor like water,” said the strong featured, quietly spoken artist when asked his views on the subject this week” (“Namatjira wants citizenship rights, Centralian Advocate, October 24, 1952).

By: Ray

Ray — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 11:59:19 +0000

I had a quick look at some of the areas I go on holidays or have lived, as I have never seen the problems Alice Springs has before moving here. In Bundaberg in Qld there are three BWS, two Liquorland, five Liquor King, and six independent liquor shops. There are also three taverns listed. In addition you have many, many restaurants and sporting clubs that sell take away alcohol to their members. This is all within a 30km radius, not to mention the outlying areas. Population about 80,000 plus outlying areas.
Wynnum in Qld is similar, if you include the neighboring suburb of Manly the population is about 25,000. For this many people there are 14 bottle shops alone. Add to this licenced clubs, sporting facilities, restaurants, taverns etc, and the amount of alcohol available is similar, if not more than Alice Springs. All figures are approximate, but if availability was really the issue, surely the problem would be replicated in these, and similar areas right across the country.
We have what is arguably the largest renal dialysis facility in the southern hemisphere, yet we do not hear of the rivers of sugar killing and destroying the lives of once again, a disproportionate number of Aboriginal people. It’s really easy to single out grog as the problems it creates is so visible in our community, but like sugary food and drink, it is the way in which it is consumed that causes the problems.
The Gillen Club and Eastside only supply to their members, so I do not think they are a major supplier to the habitual drunk, including Elders is also drawing a pretty long bow. Three legal outlets, The Gap, The Todd and Heavitree supply alcohol as their primary business, the same as all other bottleshops around the country.
Russell @10 talks about non-indigenous being highly represented in Darwin, 1500km away. I think you will find Russell that the representation of non-indigenous / non-aboriginal / white taken into protective custody here in Alice Springs is comparatively quite low.
Let’s not muddy the waters here, the argument is about a massive problem that a disproportionate number of Aboriginal people have with alcohol consumption. Can we please acknowledge that this is the major problem. By identifying this as the primary issue, we can direct the needed resources and formulate a plan to deal with it.
As long as we keep beating around the bush and generalising, this same sad situation will continue well into the next generation.

By: Bob Durnan

Bob Durnan — Wed, 26 Sep 2012 00:01:52 +0000

Rex (posted @ Posted September 25, 2012 at 12:55 am): Read the stream.
Far from “forgetting the IGAs”, my post (Posted September 22, 2012 at 2:50 pm) was in reply to Janice (@Posted September 21, 2012 at 8:21 pm), who ignorantly opined that the Aboriginal owned outlets (the IGAs and Milner Rd) were responsible for selling the majority of liquor that wasn’t being sold by Coles and Woolies.
My point was that she was badly misinformed: the IGAs and Milner Rd only account for a small proportion of the non-Coles / Woolies sales; the bulk of it is sold through the outlets I listed @ Posted September 22, 2012 at 2:50 pm.

By: Russell Guy

Russell Guy — Mon, 24 Sep 2012 21:41:44 +0000

Rex, re IGA’s selling a bucketload, this is precisely why “a licence to buy” puts some responsibility into the supply side. Organisations like the Foundation for Alcohol Research and Education (FARE) have said that “responsible serving of alcohol” is effectively in name only.
Instead of always focusing responsibility on the demand side, if we can’t get control on the supply side, you can forget about all the talk about Royal Commissions into the deplorable state of the alcohol industry in the NT – it will just be another expensive talk-fest. Bucketloads of money, Rex.
The BDR was headed in the direction of having to produce a licence to drink and the West Australians think highly enough of it to be considering its introduction.

By: Rex Neindorf

Rex Neindorf — Mon, 24 Sep 2012 15:25:58 +0000

Hi Bob, you forgot to mention all the IGAs. They sell a bucket load. And guess who owns them?
Alex, you never cease to amaze! Your stats and historical knowledge are incredible.

By: Russell Guy

Russell Guy — Sat, 22 Sep 2012 07:19:57 +0000

If you have to have a licence to sell it, you should have to have a licence to buy it. It’s a drug.

By: Bob Durnan

Bob Durnan — Sat, 22 Sep 2012 05:20:15 +0000

Janice (@Posted September 21, 2012 at 8:21 pm): actually when you exclude Coles and Woolies, the majority of alcohol is obtained from the Gapview Hotel, the Todd Tavern, the Heavitree Gap Hotel store, Elders, Piggly Wiggly, Club Eastside and the Gillen Club, and many other clubs, bars and restaurants.